From the Boardroom: Wisdom From Women at the Top Part 2
Exploring the essence of leadership: Join Claudia Healy, STOBG’s Chief Human Resources Officer, as she interviews three independent members of STOBG’s Board of Directors—Jane Chmielinski, Natalie Gochnour, and Julie Schoenfeld—on their experiences, challenges, and lessons on shattering the glass ceilings and redefining leadership in their respective fields. (Part 2 of 2)
HOST
Claudia Healy
Chief Human Resources Officer, STO Building GroupView Bio
GUEST
Jane Chmielinski
Independent Board Member, STO Building GroupView Bio
GUEST
Natalie Gochnour
Independent Board Member, STO Building GroupView Bio
GUEST
Julie Schoenfeld
Independent Board Member, STO Building GroupView Bio
Narrator:
Welcome to Building Conversations, a construction podcast powered by STO Building Group and Part 2 of From the Boardroom: Wisdom from Women at the Top. In this episode, Chief Human Resources Officer, Claudia Healy, continues her conversation with members of the STO Building Group Board of Directors, Jane Chmielinski, Natalie Gochnour, and Julie Schoenfeld. Keep listening for insight into their experiences, challenges, and triumphs as women in leadership.
Claudia Healy:
All right, ladies, so a question for you now. Oh, as you reflect at the beginning of your career to now where you’ve progressed, has your leadership style or approach changed over time or not? And if it has changed, how so and why?
Julie Schoenfeld:
Hundred percent. I don’t even think you what you could identify me from when I was a first leader. And I think it all stems from the fact that since I was living my life out of avoiding failure and out of fear, I was afraid if my team would fail. So I, that made you a terrible manager in my estimation. And then I also noticed that there were lots of people when you’re working in a larger company, you know, they stick around, is the boss there, and they wait till the boss goes home. And, you know, everything is all about some surface activity. And then especially when my first company was acquired by Ask Jeeves, and I had to travel to Ask Jeeves and these kids would sleep under their desk with their dogs. And I’m just like—
Claudia Healy:
And I had a 2-year-old that really happened.
Julie Schoenfeld:
Oh yeah. I had a 2-year-old son. I’m like, I’m not sleeping under the desk with a 2-year-old. So, I would say that the trigger point for my management style changed when I became a mother, because all of a sudden your priorities become very clear. Your child is at the top. And I had moments where I had to, you know, jump on airplanes to go be, to take care of him, didn’t matter what it was. Now I only had one child. So I think I could have managed what I did with one child. I don’t know how a mother would be able to do it with two, especially doing a startup. Just was so intense. But what I will say is that I think as a mother, you realize there are things more important than leaving after the boss than what whatever those issues are. And it makes you, it frees you up to be a better manager.
Natalie Gochnour:
That’s great. I don’t know where to start. That was a great, like, setup for, well, so many interesting things. I mean, I remember when I worked in Washington and one of my colleagues said to me, oh, so and so’s a nine to five, which was like a shame because you were supposed to work longer than that. And then I have these same feelings of being a mother and knowing that the hardest thing I believe I’ve ever done career wise is a young mother and a professional woman because you’re torn so a sunder. And I had a supportive husband and family and job and healthy children, but it’s really difficult. But I persevered and I have these wonderful children now, and it worked great. You know, so you can do it. In terms of a leadership change, just a couple of things.
Natalie Gochnour:
I’m one that likes to get involved in the details and do things myself. That’s not a good thing to do when you’re a leader. You need to get things off your desk. Jane, you’re agreeing with me there. Totally. Yeah. I just I to learn how to delegate. And then one other thing that I think was really important in my leadership development was to realize that being a leader wasn’t a position. It was an activity. And so we’re very, where I work, we talk openly about everybody’s a leader in their own sphere, you know, and it’s an act. It’s not a position. And leadership is about navigating change. We talked about how much change there is. So we got to get good in every position about seeing around corners navigating the future inventing the future, those sorts of things. That’s great.
Jane Chmielinski:
My style changed. My core values never changed. Okay. So that was sort of different. I, but my style definitely changed. The one thing I think pivoting off of what you just said, understanding that everybody leads from their seat. If you are the receptionist, but you think you are, you know, the CEO of first impressions and you live that. I think that is so much better than someone –
Natalie Gochnour:
It’s a beautiful thing.
Jane Chmielinski:
It’s perfect. And so, even though I never had every great title in the world, I always led from my seat because I was the CEO of Jane. So why wouldn’t I want to do that? And that’s really, and I just, I cultivated skills around other things, but core values stayed the same. Very, very first time I had staff. Oh, my staff meetings were hard. I used to feel badly for them. Like, why do you even come in this room? But you learn, and you learn from everything and build upon it, but you still have to keep that core.
Claudia Healy:
Oh, that’s great. You mentioned something, I think all of you did a little bit around change. And there’s so much change and there’s so much change in the world in the past three to four years in some ways. Unprecedented. There’s a lot of research today that’s talking about change fatigue. And especially as you’re thinking about the rise of AI and machine learning and the change of structures and institutions that humanity can’t tolerate this a massive tidal wave of change that’s coming at them. And so it’s really affecting people. So I’m curious from, from your perspectives, how you’ve been able to manage through and deal with that amount of change and in the positions you have today, maybe some strategies that, that you maybe are incorporating?
Jane Chmielinski:
Change. I have to admit, I love change. ’cause I think if you don’t like change, how do you like irrelevance? So I love change. I mean, I just think it’s, yeah, that’s great. That to me is sort of, so I don’t freak out about it because I just think it’s what life is. And so, no, I don’t really worry about it. Yeah. I think it’s exciting because I’ve been in the same, I’ve been in the same sort of place, but I’ve had almost, I’ve done it from starting out at the lowest entry level, moving up, becoming a president, becoming a COO, blah, blah blah. Then going to what I’m doing now where working to buy companies and build this phenomenal platform and family firms. So I’ve seen it from both what I think is fascinating. What I’m doing now feels like the prequel to my whole career. Ah. Because now I’m seeing how it’s actually done. So I love change.
Natalie Gochnour:
One of the things I try to bring to the STO building group board is a knowledge of economic and demographic trends. And of course, you know, change is afoot. Whether it’s how rapidly our society’s diversifying how we’re aging economically, the structure’s changing. I mean, we came through a pandemic, and it opened a whole new world of different behavioral change, structural change and the like. I found a few rules that help me. One is you got to keep an open mind in today’s world, you know, whatever you did a few years ago, just be willing to keep an open mind. ’cause It might give you insights in a way that’s really helpful. A second is in a changing a rapidly changing environment, you have to listen more. There’s more voices. Yeah. There’s just, you got to be a much more attentive listener.
Natalie Gochnour:
And then third, and this is just because I’m so distraught about the division in our society, but you have to unify and dignify because if we let a society just rip us apart, try change in that environment as opposed to all this change, and we unify and dignify, treat each other with dignity. Be careful in our speech. Be kind, you know, I mean, you can just go from there, but you do all those things. Change gets to be a lot more fun. And you stay relevant to Jane’s point. Yeah.
Julie Schoenfeld:
So I think about change. You know, I’m in the world of technology, so change, I’m always trying to look at a new invention and say, okay, how’s that going to change things? But I tend to look at change, that it’s sort of like you’re out surfing and you either get hit by that wave or you figure out how to surf that wave. And, you know, we talked a lot about skills needed, sailing communication. I think learning how to surf change is a skill that people need to start to pay attention to. Is that what if everything changed? Like one day we woke up and we couldn’t go into the office anymore. We all had to learn how to do meetings over zoom or how to work remotely, how to stay motivated when you’re in your house. So, change is something that either crashes you to the beach or you surf off into the future. So I think it’s a positive thing. I love to watch my son solve a problem with a computer. And I think back to when I was his age and how I would’ve solved the problem, his facility to context switch is so high. And I think that change just came, like the ocean wave is because he had access to all these tools. And so, his brain evolved to go with those tools.
Natalie Gochnour:
Jane reminds me of a famous tech entrepreneur in my state who quote, who has this quote fight change and die you know, deal with change, and survive or lead change and prosper. Yeah. That’s wonderful. And that’s your point of you have to get out in front of the wave. Yeah. You had to catch it.
Claudia Healy:
I love it. So we’re going to embrace change. We’re going to surf change, and we’re going to unify and dignify. Yeah.
Natalie Gochnour:
Let’s do it.
Claudia Healy:
Beautiful. I love it. So you all are ladies on our board of directors. I’m not sure that, you know, the average person knows what that means of what is it that that external directors do? What is the role that you serve? What do you bring to the table and how do you assist the executive management team within a business as a member of that board? Who would like to go first?
Jane Chmielinski:
Yeah, I’m sitting next to you.
Claudia Healy:
Alright, Jane. That’s the longest serving member.
Jane Chmielinski:
As the longest serving member. You know I think one of the big pivots was because I came out of being in a c-suite. Job left that, and then ended up on the board recognized you don’t run the company that I think I watch sometimes certain new board members come in and they want to be operations people. Well, that’s what other people do. I think you help with strategy; I think you say it best. You sort of help the rough spots look because you have the experience to know what could be coming around the corner. And depending on the structure of the company, there is a governance part of it. I just think staying out of the trap of you want to run the company for them because if you feel you have to, you may not have the right leaders. I also think it’s really being an arm of them to help whatever they need done. And I think the best part about being on STOBG, I’ve had the opportunity to work with some of the best people in the business and the teams. ’cause Jim and Bob are so wide open. I had one board I sat on; you could not talk to anybody in the company without going through him. And there’s none of that at STOBG. But I think don’t get too into the weeds with the company you’re serving.
Natalie Gochnour:
Yeah. Makes sense. I, you know, Claudia, what I think of is I’m asked to be there for a reason. The STO Building Group values, my economic background, my demographic background, my public policy, and political background. And so my job is to come in there and be authentically me. I shouldn’t try to be like Jane or Julie.
Jane Chmielinski:
I’ll never do that. Never.
Natalie Gochnour:
Well, because, you know, they bring what they bring. And if we were all the same, you wouldn’t need us. You know, but, and I think I’m a big believer in bringing, you know, integrity to the position and bringing insights and authenticity and just recognizing that by giving your best, you’re helping the company. And it’s a real privilege to do it because I’m a huge fan of the work that STO Building Group does.
Julie Schoenfeld:
And I think boards are at their best when they enhance the life of the executive team. When you’re in the middle of the firefight as an executive, you have blind spots. You don’t see icebergs ahead. And if you have a diverse board who truly are a sounding board, I think you can really it can make you better as an executive, make your team better as an executive. And so the good thing about the STOBG board is there are lots of diverse talents. We have an economist, we have someone who’s run engineering businesses, and I’m sort of an innovator. I’m around technology and an entrepreneur. So we all bring a different perspective, which is really, which can be really helpful if the management team is open to it as they are on, in at STOBG. So.
Claudia Healy:
Great. Specifically, as you think you mentioned blind spots and seeing around the corner, how do you think effective boards can do that?
Natalie Gochnour:
Well, one of the things is they can create an environment where you’re not afraid to speak up. You know, because you’re sitting around a board table with people with a lot of expertise that you don’t have, but you might see something, let’s say it’s employee engagement. I know from the business literature that culture eats strategy for breakfast. Right? I’m supposed to speak up and say, you got to pay attention to your culture. The people matter. And so, it’s, I think it’s super important that you create an environment where people are very willing to share and sometimes tell you what you don’t want to hear.
Claudia Healy:
Important.
Julie Schoenfeld:
And it’s, again, building on that because it is, are people willing to hear what you’re saying? But when you come from a completely different industry, there are known knowns from your industry. So, you know, hacking or what is chat GPT going to do to my business? Having access to deeper knowledge about those things can be useful to the executive team. Someone that has run like Jane has, the engineering companies from the ground up. You can probably almost with your Spidey senses, figure out if something’s going off on the culture or on the management. So it’s this notion of really just synthesizing the skills of the team that really, and I think that Natalie said it best, is that if the management team is open to hearing it ,that’s when it’s really great.
Jane Chmielinski:
Yeah. I would have to say I agree. The listening. If everything is just, yeah, okay, that’s nice. Well, I’m meeting adjourn safe travels. That is the worst board to be on. And I agree to feel that you, I believe everybody that’s on the boards does have something to contribute. It may be very different from even what you do in your everyday job, but there’s something to contribute. And I have to admit, when I first sat on the board, ’cause I came out of the engineering side, I had to learn a whole new nomenclature. I had to understand money is made differently. So it was very, very different. So there was still a steep learning curve, but there are some absolutes that don’t change from business to business.
Claudia Healy:
It was interesting we were talking about some of the decisions and conversations around the board tables today and how it’s maybe more divisive today in some ways in businesses and in the world than it was five or 10 years ago. And we talked previously about things like generational gaps technology trends, decline of institutions, pace of change, disruptive technology. Is there a role that companies can or should play in any of this space or that boards can have an influence in or take under advisement or consideration and help advise the firms on?
Natalie Gochnour:
I’m happy to jump in first by just saying that I am a big fan of what the business community does in this country. And I say that as someone who’s a public policy expert. You know, our governments are struggling right now. We have so much disparity in viewpoints. People, when you say institutions, the Supreme Court’s being questioned, you know, Congress is being questioned. A lot of times local school boards are being questioned. These are our institutions of public life, what we do together. And I think business can be a huge bind. You know, binds maybe not the right word a big way binding us together. You know, the old comment that when General Motors sneezes the rest of the nation catches a cold. Well, if you just reverse that and say, when business does well, it can be contagious and good things can happen. So I really look for business at both the local level and at the national level to help us remedy some of the problems we’re seeing in our association life or government. I don’t know how you all feel, but.
Julie Schoenfeld:
What a great answer.
Jane Chmielinski:
Well, I think there’s a possibility. A possibility. Does it come from.
Julie Schoenfeld:
I love that answer. And I was also thinking that when I worked at companies like Proctor and Gamble and Hewlett Packard, and even now, the divisiveness that you see in the country never exists. That’s true in the company because we’re all rowing our boat towards the same goal. Yeah. And so I feel a sense of identity, cohesion, team inside of a company. And so when you are suffering from something like the divisions we see in this world, the way to solve these problems is look for the areas of stability. And I think you’re right, Natalie. I think it’s business is where it’s at right now. Yeah.
Jane Chmielinski:
It’s interesting though. I think it’s something we should actually talk about at the board. Yeah. Okay. ’cause It would be an interesting topic. ’cause I’d be interested to see if some of the younger employees don’t feel that, well, sort of crazy, these boards, what is this? You know, so I think it’s a real avenue to explore.
Claudia Healy:
So I’m going a little bit off script here. But you all are members of the board and your successful women executives. And Julie, I think earlier you talked in your role about the different realities for women and men in the same exact role. I often time hear from women of, well, gee, I have a hard time networking in the same way that my male counterparts do because I don’t golf. Or I have obligations at home, and I have to go home for childcare or for homework or whatever it is. What advice or strategies or techniques would you suggest to perhaps women and or men that have been successful for you in terms of being able to build the network that you have to be able to be successful and credible in the roles that you have today? Thoughts?
Julie Schoenfeld:
So, I think it starts with being great. Be great. Because people want to be around you if you’re good at what you do, that’s number one. Number two, I think that from early on in my life, I was taught that life is not fair. You’re dealt the hand. You got to play that hand. And so whether you are great at networking or not, great. I know many men who aren’t great at networking. I know many women who are great at it. That’s a skill. That’s a skill. Like being a redhead is a feature. You know, you just, you got to set of skills. Use them to achieve your goal. I think the real trick is set the goal, decide what it is you want to do, and then just make it happen. Just walk through the wall, make it happen.
Julie Schoenfeld:
Use whatever you have to make it happen. And so I always, since I always was putting together startup teams, I used to think, you know, the worst thing you could do is just have five redheads around the table. I always was looking for people that were different from me. So if it, so I looked for the most diverse team because I’m looking for people who have skills I don’t have. And so I think that diversity is a great source of strength. And I think that, you know, play the hand you’re dealt.
Natalie Gochnour:
I like your point about you know, life’s not fair. Totally agree. I also think that it’s a lesson in life to build from your strengths. You know, Jane’s mentioned she’s an introvert. Maybe networking’s not your thing. I don’t know.
Julie Schoenfeld:
She’s not an introvert. Let’s just put, that’s working out my, she’s not an introvert. I’m working out of my—
Claudia Healy:
I’m not buying it either.
Natalie Gochnour:
My point is that whatever your strengths are, double down on them because that’s where you’ve got momentum. And if you try to just always work on your weaknesses, you’re just taking on water and there’s just all sorts of ways to succeed. You don’t have to be on the golf course to succeed. If that’s something that comes to you naturally and you enjoy it, want to do it, go for it. If not, make your boss look good. By creating value in the talking points you provide, you’ll be, you know, essential. And so just find your strengths and then just load into them.
Claudia Healy:
I love that.
Jane Chmielinski:
I’m actually the worst person to talk about this because I lived on the road for 25 years and only went home on weekends. So I had a different path. I’m not saying I chose it, but I actually did enjoy it. And so I think the freedom to choose the path you choose and then to say, ’cause one size doesn’t fit all. Yeah.
Natalie Gochnour:
Lots of ways.
Jane Chmielinski:
There’s just lots of ways. Yeah. And I like what Julie said about set your goal and figure those steps. ’cause If you leave it up to everybody else, probably won’t go the way you like.
Claudia Healy:
It’s interesting though. And we know Jane is really not an introvert. I think she wants to be an introvert, but even you do –
Jane Chmielinski:
I’ll show you my Myers Briggs.
Claudia Healy:
You network so well, but you don’t try. Even last night at dinner, you literally were like a hummingbird or a little bee pollinating every little table. You’re just walking around. You knew something about everybody. You had a conversation point with everybody. You brought everybody into the conversation. You were so inclusive. And that’s networking at its best. Making everybody feel like they belong. Having the connection and connecting others,
Jane Chmielinski:
Maybe because I don’t think of that as networking. I just think of it as fine. I mean, I’m interested. I’m –
Natalie Gochnour:
I think she has a gracious heart, and it makes it so that she’s very appealing to people and that makes her seem like an extrovert.
Julie Schoenfeld:
Or she is an extrovert.
Jane Chmielinski:
I am collecting myself, right now.
Claudia Healy:
You can be whatever you want to be.
Jane Chmielinski:
That’s right. Wasn’t there a book?
Claudia Healy:
You run that right? I’m curious, as you today think about advice you would have for people who aspire to be like you someday running companies starting companies on boards or just in leadership, senior level leadership positions. What advice would you have for them? And would your advice be different if you were giving it to a young man or to a young woman? Or would it be the same?
Julie Schoenfeld:
My advice would be the same. Don’t expect it to be fair. I already said that. Always ask for the order. That’s my, I learned that in sales always ask for the order. You can’t start selling until somebody says no.
Julie Schoenfeld:
Don’t let somebody else flunk you. You know, do not accept somebody else’s version of you if it’s not correct.
Natalie Gochnour:
Love it. I got to go to you next. ’cause I need more time to think.
Jane Chmielinski:
Well, I’m with Julie that I would not change it that much. I really think it’s so individual. I wouldn’t do it around gender lines. I also agree. Just no, to me has always been, it’s a suggestion. It’s just a suggestion. Don’t fall apart. And I just feel you just keep going. You know, it doesn’t mean you have to. And I have to say, I don’t think you always have to be the smartest, the most anything. Sometimes it’s the one with the most drive in the most commitment to it. But no, I would not change how I would mentor or sponsor a man or a woman.
Natalie Gochnour:
Woman. Yeah. I, you know, I mean, I get this idea of not changing your advice based on lines of gender. I guess I’m just really sympathetic to female professionals. And so I’ll just throw that out there. Sure. But I work a lot with students in higher education and then work a lot with young professionals. And then I have two millennial children. I’m always motivated to encourage people to move towards energy. Okay. Move towards where you’re feeling alive, where life’s giving back to you. And I think that’s really good advice. Because that’s what helps you thrive is where you’re moving towards, where you have these natural energies and you know, you don’t have to be perfectly correct. You can iterate around a directionally kind of plan. But as long as you’re moving towards where you’re feeling a sense of energy, I think life will work for you.
Claudia Healy:
Oh, I like that. Great. It’s interesting, and I know, I think we’ve talked about this before too, but one size does not fit all. So for me, if I was thinking about giving advice, I don’t know that I would give advice differently to, you know, a young man or a young woman. I think I’d have to get to know them and know where they’re coming from to be able to know what’s important to them. And then based upon their reality, probably tailor to my answer. Because different people have different drivers. But from your experience, you know, you can’t leave who you are behind. If you’re a woman, you’re a woman. If you’re a parent, you’re a parent. If, if you’re a caregiver, you’re a caregiver, you bring all of that with you and to you, and you might have some experiences that might be helpful to somebody because you’re uniquely who you are, that could help them as well. So, I think sometimes the answer to me is, it depends on who it would be. Because there is no silver bullet or no perfect answer. Also. So you mentioned thriving, go to where you thrive, and I feel like people thrive when they are leaning into their strengths and when they have their superpower. So I’m curious for each of you, what’s your superpower?
Natalie Gochnour:
Let’s make Jane answer that first. ’cause She’ll be so uncomfortable with it.
Claudia Healy:
And then part two is, if you were a superhero, who would you be? Oh my. So we’ll start with just your superpower first, and then we’ll come back to who your superhero would be.
Jane Chmielinski:
Oh, good lord.
Claudia Healy:
Superpower.
Jane Chmielinski:
Superpower? I love to tell you something. Continuously curious. Like it that continuously glorious, you never could. I always feel there’s something more to know or learn. And I think everybody is pretty interesting. So curiosity.
Natalie Gochnour:
I like it. Yeah. I think my superpower at, I want to say it humbly, but is the ability to take complexity and distill it into something simple. And, you know, you need things to be as simple as possible, but not too simple. But I do that in economics. I do that in, you know, human relationships and just try to really distill things down to their essence.
Julie Schoenfeld:
I think mine is that I just don’t give up. I will just chomp onto somebody’s ankle and not let go until I get what I want.
Natalie Gochnour:
Sounds like an entrepreneur.
Julie Schoenfeld:
And, you know, it was the question of how do you succeed is just you outlast everybody. Sometimes that works.
Claudia Healy:
That’s just, you have to outrun the fastest person who’s running away from the bear. Right. it’s interesting, right? So curiosity, resiliency, never giving up, and then synthesizing the ability to make something so complex, simple all, all very important, very powerful. And I think you said earlier, Jane, if had more time, I’d make a shorter presentation. It’s not easy. It’s a real skill and a craft. So if you could be any superhero in the world at any point in time, who would you be? Somebody said Spidey senses before, but—
Julie Schoenfeld:
All right. I’ll go first. ’cause I don’t, I’m not into the superhero thing, so I’ll have to go old school and I’d say Superman because when I believe that I can get something done, you cannot stop me. But every once in a while, someone will make me feel bad. That’ll be kryptonite or make me feel bad about myself. And then I’m just, you know, I can’t move. It’s my kryptonite.
Natalie Gochnour:
I’m really hesitant to do this. Claudia, you can cut this if you want, but oh
Claudia Healy:
No, we’re leaving it in.
Natalie Gochnour:
If I were to pick the superhero right now I would love to be Nikki Haley. How? And I say, well, I say that because I think she’s so competent and such a great example of a leader and, you know, regardless of your politics, it’s just the notion of her representing the United States of America on the international stage. I think that’s really exciting. Now, you know, that’s a political statement, but the idea is that there are outstanding women that deserve to represent us at high, high levels. And she’s just the latest one I’d put out there.
Claudia Healy:
That’s great.
Natalie Gochnour:
Okay.
Jane Chmielinski:
You know, I am so terrible at these kinds of questions that it’s amazing. ’cause I know no superheroes. I know. It’s just like, I know
Julie Schoenfeld:
Who’s the one with the Gumby arms.
Jane Chmielinski:
Are you kidding? I was thinking of Eleanor Roosevelt in a cape. Perfect.
Julie Schoenfeld:
Oh, so you get Eleanor Roosevelt, Nikki Haley, and I get Superman? Okay. So who is the serious person here?
Claudia Healy:
You could be one from Marvel. Iron Man. There’s so many.
Julie Schoenfeld:
Yeah, No, I –
Claudia Healy:
Or you could be –
Julie Schoenfeld:
You guys changed the question,
Jane Chmielinski:
I’m glad I could definitely do it, but I, yeah, I don’t know. I honestly can’t relate to some of those things, but I guess, I don’t know, I’m going to go with Superman. ’cause I did like the kryptonite. Not so much the, you know, it is that notion that yeah, it can be tough, but every once in a while, man, that can kill you. So, yep.
Claudia Healy:
It’s interesting, the kryptonite because, and there is research that suggests that, that women sometimes have this, this voice that talks to them about not being good enough. Yep. And that men actually will apply to a job when they have about 50% of the skills or qualifications for the job. But generally, women will wait until they get closer to, you know, 80, 90% of the skills or qualifications needed to do the job. And that kryptonite that you already recognize that there is this voice. Sometimes people do it to you, but sometimes you can do it to yourself. How do you tackle that for yourself? How do you recognize it and then stop that voice and put it back in the box where it belongs?
Natalie Gochnour:
You know, you bring up Superman. I’m, you know, in Park City, Utah, we have the Sundance Film Festival just ended. But I went and watched the film Superman, it’s the life story of Christopher Reeves. Oh boy. Yeah. And, you know, tell me how interesting that is. To be Superman on the big screen and then have a, you know, an accident riding a horse and become a quadriplegic and got to meet his children. They were at the debut of this film, but there’s a story of triumph, you know, a man that reached that high and then had that happen in his life. And it, it’s been 20 years since he passed. And his children finally felt like they could tell the story. Wow. It became a documentary at this year’s Sundance Film Festival.
Claudia Healy:
Wow. I’ll have to watch it. Yeah.
Jane Chmielinski:
I think specifically to the question, I think when all these negative thoughts that you keep pouring into yourself, I don’t garden, but I get the concept like, get rid of the weeds. To me, those are all weeds in my brain. So just de-weed my brain and get them out of there, because you hold those, those are the things you will carry all day, all week, all month, all year. So just weed ’em out and literally sometimes write it down what you’re weeding out of your head. That’s great. So I’m big at weeding those things Yeah. Because they’ll kill you.
Natalie Gochnour:
Yeah.
Julie Schoenfeld:
Really important question and really important thing to notice is what your little voice saying and how do you change that little voice? For me, it’s just surrounding myself by people who are always talking positive. So, you know, when you’re in a toxic situation, you need to get out of it because it’s just going to make you behave or it’s going to become your kryptonite.
Natalie Gochnour:
And there’s good places to go. Yes. There’s always alternatives.
Julie Schoenfeld:
And sometimes you’re in a team at work and the team is toxic to you, and it’s your kryptonite, so you keep getting worse. And as a manager, it’s your responsibility to make sure everybody is performing at the highest level, and you got to make sure there’s no kryptonite floating around that office. So.
Claudia Healy:
Were there ever, and we weren’t prepared for this question, I’m just curious, in your career, were you ever in that type of a situation where it was so toxic for you, where you felt like, or you recognized it was so toxic for somewhere else where you realized, I just need to make a change? Now or as soon as I possibly can. I’m just, without going into any details or disclosing the company. But I’m just curious, you know, how you observed it and what you did to help yourself have the courage to get out of it. ’cause Sometimes people just stay and then it has all these negative, even health effects and things that you bring home, other stressors and anxieties that can be created. So I’m just curious if you ever had one of those situations and what you did to get yourself in a healthy place again.
Julie Schoenfeld:
Yeah. Well, for me, I had a goal. I was going to be an entrepreneur and I was going to get there no matter what. So if I found myself in this toxic situation where people around me were not enhancing my life, I would change it. But I feel like part of being an entrepreneur is being very empowered and just believing, well, if this group is not for me, what else is in this company that I can do with a better environment? And if I couldn’t find that, I would walk away. And I’m not a quitter. I mean, I just told you my superpower was that I don’t give up. But staying around in a situation that does not support your mental health is not a good thing. Yeah.
Natalie Gochnour:
And I would say no one gets through a career unscathed. There’s always moments in your career where you’re in difficult situations. You just figure it out.
Jane Chmielinski:
I have quick, just for, just for the record, I’m not a martyr. Because I don’t think it ever works well for the martyr. So I don’t say like, I’m going to keep doing this. And, and I just had a situation and I, again, measured the decision on every dimension, willing to accept the consequences. And it was the best thing I ever did. I never looked back, and I was very frightened. ’cause I was in public sector. It was my first foray into the private sector, and I was scared to death. But it was the best thing that ever happened. The fear propelled me, and I was out of the toxic situation. So.
Natalie Gochnour:
I also think it’s incumbent on leaders to recognize toxic situations and make changes where they need to be made. I’ve had times when I’ve inherited a bad situation and I dealt with it, and the person before me didn’t, you know, and I think you got to deal with bad situations.
Julie Schoenfeld:
And generally, it’s amazing in a toxic situation how it’s generally one person can change the whole dynamic. Yes. Good. Either good or bad. And if you recognize what that is and you change it, it’s worth doing. And it’s, I think it’s your responsibility, as Natalie said.
Claudia Healy:
If you had one powerful point that you could share with anybody listening to the podcast today, if they got nothing else out of the entire time together, what would that powerful point or message be? And it could be something that somebody else said. It doesn’t have to be something that you said
Natalie Gochnour:
I’m just going to go with believe in yourself. You’re in this world for a reason. You have life experiences that have shaped you and made you who you are. And if you believe in yourself and apply yourself as I mentioned, pick a directionally correct path, iterate around it, move towards energy, you’ll be successful.
Jane Chmielinski:
Great. I love it.
Julie Schoenfeld:
Someday you’re going to be sitting here 30 years back, looking back over your career and this moment that you think is, you know, life is ending at this moment. You’re going to look back and go, oh, that was no big deal. And I look back at the worst things that ever happened to me, and I’m like, oh, was I worried about? So, nothing is ever as good as it seems and never as bad as it seems.
Jane Chmielinski:
That’s great. I know this one will surprise you. I think you have to; you have to have all the other, everything we’ve talked about today. But I have to say, find the funny.
Jane Chmielinski:
Because it makes the rough patches so much better when you can find the funny and have those people in your circle that make you laugh at yourself. And I’m a big believer in just don’t keep beating yourself up. It’s take the hair shirt off. You can do that. So, I would say, I think it’s a pivot of what you said, it’s just, I think there were things where I dissected proposals and presentations if it didn’t go well. And I look back on it now and I don’t even remember it. I don’t remember a lot of things now, but particularly.
Claudia Healy:
Well I have to say. I’m sad that we’re at getting to the end of the podcast time together now. But this has been so inspiring to me, and I’ve really enjoyed every moment. The three of you are incredible individually, but collectively the insights, the wisdom, and the energy that you bring is truly incredible. And it’s been really fun to see you all coming together. And I just want to say thank you on behalf of the STOBG team and all of our people for sharing with us and being truly authentically yourselves and sharing sometimes, you know, things that are very humbling and frightening, but we’re all just people ultimately and we’re all here to help each other. So I want to say thank you again. And I got a lot out of it, and I hope that you all got something out of it for each other too.
Narrator:
Thanks for listening! If you missed part 1 of the discussion, you can find the first half of the episode where ever you listen to the Building Conversations podcast. . If you want to watch the full conversation, check out the Building Conversations Podcast playlist on Structure Tone’s YouTube channel.