Synergy on Site: Exploring IPD
Ever wondered how modern construction delivery methods are reshaping the industry? Join Chris McGinnis, Senior Project Manager at LF Driscoll, Mike Dikon, Vice President at LF Driscoll, and Steve Greulich, Associate VP of Capital Projects for Penn Medicine, as they explore how Integrated Project Delivery (IPD) is transforming collaboration, boosting efficiency, and redefining success on projects.
HOST
Chris McGinnis
Senior Project Manager, LF DriscollView Bio
GUEST
Mike Dikon
Vice President, LF DriscollView Bio
GUEST
Stephen Greulich
Associate VP, Real Estate Design & Construction, Penn MedicineView Bio
Chris McGinnis (00:00Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Hello, and welcome to STOBG’s Building Conversations. I’m your host, Chris McGinnis, Senior Project Manager at LF Driscoll. Joined today by Mike Dikon, Vice President at LF Driscoll, and Steve Greulich, Associate VP of Capital Projects for Penn Medicine. We’re excited today to talk about alternative delivery methods in the construction industry. We’re going to talk a little bit about Design-Build, Design-Assist, and Integrated Project Delivery, or IPD. First off, let’s start with some introductions. Steve, why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself, your brief career, and your current role?
Steve Greulich (00:36Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Sure. So I’m with Penn Medicine, as Chris said, I’m associate Vice President for our design and construction group which I’ve been in that role for about three years now. Been with Penn Medicine for 18 years and have been in the design and construction industry my whole career—which is forty plus if you’re counting. So I’ve done lots of different things, from pre-construction on the construction management side, through to design and occupy buildings. So currently, I am overseeing and managing our project managers across our health system. We do about between $450 and $500 million in capital projects throughout every year. Prior to that, and for about seven years, I managed and oversaw our large Pavilion project, which we’ll talk about, which is a true IPD project. And about one and a half million square feet, $1.6 billion. So, a really successful project, I believe. And one of the reasons that we’re here. Mike?
Thank you, Steve. So, as Chris and Steve mentioned, my name is Mike Dikon. I’m one of the vice presidents with LF Driscoll. I’ve been in the business about 20 years, and I’ve come up through the estimating side, estimating and pre-construction. Steve and I had the privilege of working together for many years through all of the Penn Medicine Pavilion project, along with a handful of other Penn medicine projects throughout my career. As Steve mentioned, the Pavilion project was a true IPD contract, a true agreement, a multi-party agreement, excuse me, and it brought a lot of IPD collaboration and behaviors to the forefront of our experience and our experience working together, particularly a lot of the benefits and some of the strategies and challenges. And that’s one of the things we want to talk to you guys about today. So we’re very excited to be here.
Chris McGinnis (02:39Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Thank you guys. So, construction’s been around a really long time, right? Since the pyramids, construction has evolved, and I feel personally that it has evolved immensely in the last 10-15 years at an exponential rate. We’ve seen a lot of new things come into the market. We’re going to talk about some of those today. Mike, can you help explain to the audience of what Design-Build is, what Design-Assist is, and what Integrated Project Delivery or IPD is?
Absolutely Chris. So I’d say, first off, let’s start with Design-Assist. In today’s age, every construction management contract and every project has some engagement with Design-Assist, which is bringing to the team some experience of technical backgrounds—whether it’s both of us in a constructability method as CMs or our trade partners our subcontractors—generally the market have seen a lot in the mechanical, electrical, and curtain wall envelope fields. But, it has evolved into major trades that have prefabrication elements. Specialty trades may require a little bit more unique designing to a particular product or, vendor, or system. In that design-assist kind of method, we see a lot of the contractual relationships still fall between an owner and a contractor and an owner and an architect engineering team. There is no direct contractual obligation between the architect and CM, although there are some intangible soft connections.
Owners started engaging over time with alternative method, which was generally Design-Build because they wanted to take away that soft connection between the AE team and the CM. They wanted to have it be maybe a little bit more of an integration, hopefully getting a little bit more of the collaboration or an owner would hire a CM direct, the CM would then hire an AE team, they would fall as a consultant underneath one of us. But ultimately we would have contractual obligations to support them and to design a building. Kind of a single point of contact in that Design-Build, and not necessarily is there an owner to architect engineer relationship. In an IPD or an Integrated Project Delivery, one of the benefits that we’ve seen, and one of the reasons for it is that there is actually still the conventional structure of an AE team that can talk direct to an owner, a CM that can talk to direct to an owner and an AE team and a CM team that work together and actually do have an obligation to work together in a true multi-party agreement.
When we say the term multi-party agreement, we mean that the architect, engineer, contractor, and owner are all signing the same agreement to work together, collaborate, and bring forth what’s best for the project. So that’s a little bit of the background of the three methods that we’re seeing and some of the reasons why each of these three methods has evolved from a collaboration perspective. Steve, do you want to elaborate more?
Steve Greulich (05:39Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Yeah, so I would like to elaborate just a little bit on the IPD especially. Design-Assist, as Mike said, has been used on the second and maybe third-tier levels of a project. But the Integrated Project Delivery really brings that to the forefront. From an owner’s perspective and from our perspective, a couple of the reasons that we really went in the direction of IPD and continue to do so is that we wanted to bring the team together at the very beginning of a project, and that could be even before we have any kind of concept drawings. And we just sort of know what our program is going to be. And so in, at least in the process that we have worked through, we put out that we want teams to put themselves together and come to us and show that we all can work together as one team right from the very beginning as opposed to hiring architect, they get started, and then, months later and sometimes longer, we hire a construction manager who might or might not bring along some subcontractors.
Steve Greulich (06:53Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
And there, as Mike said, there’s no direct correlation between the designer and the construction folks. So, we really wanted to get teams involved from the very beginning. And it’s important to note that that team includes us, the owner, and folks from our side, not necessarily just in sort of my group, which is design and construction, but also broader into users, key administrative folks at the hospital, and sometimes the very top senior leadership within our health system. So that’s really one thing; we just want to get that team set up from the beginning and build relationships. The singular agreement, I think, is also a really big part that we looked at and said: “Look, we’re not going to get rid of changes, but this is a way that we hope to be able to manage as a group any of the changes that might come along.”
Steve Greulich (07:56Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
So, having a singular integrated form of agreement that all parties are signing and understand that we all have a relationship with each other. And the last thing from our perspective, again, from an owner, besides getting the team together, was that there’s a singular focus for the team, and that focus is the project, and it is not companies. So, by getting a team together from the beginning, making it very clear what the expectations are and keep starting and building, and then continuing with this singular focus for the project team, which is the project is first.
Chris McGinnis (08:39Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
It’s really good to hear that from an owner’s perspective because we do see a lot of RFPs coming in these days with an IPD-Lite culture expected almost on projects now. So, from an owner’s experience, Steve, what do you think makes up that IPD culture or makes a successful IPD culture?
Steve Greulich (09:01Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Sure. Well, as I said, I think that putting the team together first builds relationships, and we’ve used a number of different sort of relationship-building methods where sometimes you do these self-tests and figure out or somebody tells you what, how your brain works. And we all know that an engineer’s brain, Chris’s brain, for instance, works very differently than our lead designer and architect and the lead mechanical engineer. So everybody has different strengths, and it’s a matter of how do we all work together and how do we understand each other’s strengths and work towards enhancing them for the project?
Steve, I would also add to that, as we’ve seen more complex projects, particularly in the healthcare and institutional arena, as these projects have become more complex, you need to build a really high-performing team to help solve and design and build those projects. And sometimes the old method, the conventional siloed method of contractors versus architect engineers, everybody doing their own thing in their own way and what’s best for them really isn’t creating high-performing teams for the project. As you mentioned, we’re all trying to do what’s best for the project. The project comes first. It’s interesting to kind of see; I think a lot of clients have seen that in the industry that the old way or the conventional way puts a lot of onus on them to kind of force that great team to happen versus an IPD-type culture, which may be that method alone brings the value of “you have to create a team, your team has to be high-performing and contractually obligates you to want to solve problems for the betterment of the project.” So there seems to be that correlation that must be out there, Chris, and it’s out there in the market enough. The successes of a handful of IPD jobs, such as the Pavilion, really have kind of brought that to the forefront.
Chris McGinnis (11:10Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
What key things would you say enable that culture to be there? Like, how does a team—we talked about building these high-performing teams—what are the key aspects that make that happen? Because it’s easy to say, right? But how does it get done? What are the key things you think that make up that?
Steve Greulich (11:27Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Yeah, so I’ll give you my, my perspective on that. So, and not in any particular order, but the collaboration and, you know, we’ve talked about building a team, but really the collaboration between and amongst all of the team members, and again, that’s a large group, and it could go in our situation in healthcare that can go to a nurse on a floor or an EVS (Environmental Service Technician)/janitor who is the one who is ultimately going to be taking care of the cleanliness of a facility. So, but building that collaboration with, with everybody specific to the IPD team, that IPD agreement I think really drives and, and almost, you know, the intention might be to sort of force collaboration a bit because without that, I think that those things can still be achieved.
Steve Greulich (12:26Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
We’ve used to think a little bit outside IPD, but how do we do that, and how do we get the most out of collaboration on projects that aren’t necessarily: “I don’t have an IPD-agreement.” We’ve used a memorandum of understanding on projects where we go right up front, we go to the designers, the engineers, the construction managers, and we say, for whatever reason, we’re not doing this IPD, maybe we can’t, or it’s just a time issue. But we all want to work together just like it’s IPD. And so we’ve used this memorandum of understanding to make those expectations, again, very clear from the start. Regardless of what the contracts say, we all need to work together to solve our issues, solve our problems, and deal with things that come up every day.
Steve Greulich (13:19Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
And so, this collaboration is really important, whether it’s IPD or not IPD. Another one is transparency, and this is really a major tenet in a true IPD project, which is it’s essential; it is an open book. And I tell all the contractors, all the architects, all the engineers on an IPD job: “You cannot lose money on this project,” right? How much money and how much profit the different folks ultimately attain is dependent on all of the work that we all do through the whole duration of the project. But it is transparency, and you have to be willing and able to open up your books to talk openly about struggles and about things that you might have hidden or pushed to the side under more traditional methods.
Steve Greulich (14:25Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Team building, we’ve talked a lot about it. We’ve already talked a lot about team building, but it is really important to the success of IPD. It’s about people. It’s about how people interact with each other, and when difficulties arise, you have to be really willing and able to address them right up front. And those can be some hard conversations, but they’re really important ultimately to the whole team and to continuing the team building. The last one, then I’ll throw back to Mike, is respect. And you can’t really teach respect. People either have it or they don’t. But what we try to do in an IPD project is really push that to the forefront. And when it appears that somebody or some company is not giving respect across the board to all the others and all the other firms, we bring that up. And I will tell you that my experience, our experience, has been that it really catches on, and people really appreciate the fact that you’re asking me to respect other people and other people’s ideas, but you’re also asking everybody else to do the same for me. So, everything is more than a one-way street. It’s all at least a two-way street.
Chris McGinnis (15:51Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Thank you, Steve. Mike, do you have a similar perspective or anything else you want to add to?
Yeah, and I would say maybe from the contractor’s perspective, the first and foremost and the biggest one that I’ve really felt is trust and kind of trust first. Unfortunately, the industry, particularly the contractors’ industry, may have just some bad historical reputations. Owners don’t always trust us, and architects and engineers may not always trust us. Trust isn’t easily given; it does still have to be earned. But if you assume trust first, if that’s a behavior and a culture that you create on a project team, and you trust people that don’t work for your company, you trust people on the other side of the team; it does help create that high-performing team. It helps you work together to collaborate, bring that transparency, and do what’s best for the project.
That, to me, is one of the biggest differences in projects, particularly large projects that I’ve been involved in, where you can see the success of the project was driven by the team trusting each other. I would say another one, and similar to trusting, is accountability. You have to be willing to have people be leaders but be accountable for making decisions and doing what’s best, and when they don’t, account for the fact that they may not be the right fit for the project. And as we might say, you know, get voted off the island at times; we need to find people who have these behaviors and are accountable for these things, who are doing what’s best for the project and can propagate that culture. I would say communication, which is kind of paramount in our industry right now and can be a challenge given the tech-driven communication that we have and the quick, instantaneous communication that we’re all looking for the effort it takes to communicate
You need to force that communication. You need to have big room sessions, you know, lean culture where you are, you know, making everybody stand up and communicate: “What are you working on? What do you need? How can we help?” And maybe: “What obstacles are you seeing?” It kind of brings some of the other behaviors that Steve was mentioning to the forefront of being transparent and being respectful but doing it in a way where we’re all understanding what’s happening. And it’s not just that the senior leaders of a company know this is the issue, right? And I would say finally, as many of us are in the industry, we’re engineers maybe by trade or by background, even architects, by background, we’re people that like to solve problems and do what’s best and do it efficiently and take a lot of pride in that problem-solving skill. So, creating teams that want to solve problems and empowering them to go solve them is a major tenet, I would say, in an IPD culture on a project, whether it’s a true IPD agreement or not.
Chris McGinnis (18:44Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Awesome. Thank you, Mike.
So I would say, Chris, having worked on maybe some recent large jobs that are not truly IPD but have explored the IPD tenets and culture in a non-IPD arrangement, what have you seen as part of the challenge in this shift in mindset, this one-team approach?
Chris McGinnis (19:05Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
So, that one-team approach is the crux of the issue, right? So, Steve mentioned it earlier from an owner side; you just mentioned it from a CM side of that team building. So, that is the gold standard of a good team that will help a successful project. Projects can last a long time. Projects can range from a few months on a project. It could go all the way up to 7, 8, 9, 10 years on a large project. So you have to make sure the right team is selected, that marriage will last a long time. What people see is that that team selected it doesn’t end there. The challenge in the field just begins, right? We’re rolling out on a lot of projects. We roll out, you know, there could be 70, 80 subcontracting companies on a single project.
Chris McGinnis (19:51Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
There could be a workforce of a thousand plus different tradespeople on the project. The biggest challenge that I see at the project level is ensuring that that culture you guys talked about establishing early on rolls out and rolls to every single person who joins the project team and joins the project site. It’s certainly a challenge, and we certainly have a lot of success stories about it. I’ll share one that I’m really proud of, and I will use this story as an example. When we onboard new trades on these IPD-Lite projects, I had a job where we had a foreman who was in the business for 35 years as a site work contractor. And this foreman, you heard the expression, you can’t teach an old dog a new trick. At first, I was a skeptic. I thought we would never get this person to buy into the culture that we had created.
Chris McGinnis (20:39Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
We had such a good culture rolling, and I was really worried as they were one of the first big subs on board doing site work and foundations, and this was going to be our true test. First off, he came in and was really not buying the culture idea. Unfortunately, the company was so familiar with the area, and the scope of work, and the client that they were the right company to do the job. It was just this individual. So before voting this individual off the island, as you mentioned, we wanted to give this person a try and try and coach them, right? Coaching is a key in IPD or IPD-Lite projects. So we had a lot of different work sessions with this person, and we did pull planning and big room sessions.
Chris McGinnis (21:29Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
We worked together. We slowly developed over a month or two this person’s skills in the IPD-Lite culture and IPD-Lite mindset. And I, as a skeptic, turned into a believer because this person in three months was leading the charge. I couldn’t believe it. I never, again, will I go to a job where somebody says: “Oh, it can’t be done with this person, or it can’t be done with this contractor,” because I saw it with my own eyes. And seeing is believing. That is an example I use now when we onboard new subcontractors to site; I tell this story because people start to open their minds and say: “Wow, if he can do it, maybe we can do it too.” And it’s just a vigilant battle. So everybody, every time, every month, we’re onboarding new folks, new trades, new people, and we have to keep up with the role. That’s the biggest challenge that we see, at least on the field side. Steve, from an owner’s perspective, that culture that we’ve been talking about, what benefits do you realize from, from the owner’s side, when that’s created in the field?
Steve Greulich (22:33Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Sure. I think that, honestly, the biggest benefit from an owner’s perspective is problem-solving. And sort of managing those inevitable changes. And again, that has to be put forth as an expectation at the very beginning. But being able to solve problems and deal with issues. I mean, and I’ll give an example too here, which is a healthcare mega-hospital, even on a small healthcare project. We all know that medical equipment can be an issue. Because technology is constantly changing, the expertise of doctors and physicians is always changing, and the Department of Health is always changing their requirements. And that’s something that we know and have to expect. When we started out on the Pavilion project, and we hadn’t even started the design, but we were in the conversations and discussions about finalizing our agreement, and it was one of the lead folks, one of the architects, who said, “Look, I’m just going to say this right now. We all know that this project is an opening for seven years and we can’t bank on the MRIs and the CTS being what they are today, so what are we all going to do about that? And how are we going to address that?”
Steve Greulich (23:54Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
We all know that this project isn’t opening for seven years and we can’t bank on the MRIs and the CTS being what they are today, so what are we all going to do about that? And how are we going to address that?” So that was, to me, a great example from the very beginning that this was a really good team because we know that’s going to be an issue, and it’s going to come up, and we are going to have to make changes to the some of it, the design, some of it, the construction. They might be minuscule, and they might be really large, but we know that’s going to happen. Being able to deal with those, and then clearly we had numerous situations like that on the Pavilion where the latest and greatest CT had to be put into this building. Well, they didn’t even exist when we started the design process. So, the team knew it was coming, so everybody got together, and we solved those problems, dealt with them, and managed those, which were inevitable changes.
Chris McGinnis (25:02Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Thank you, Steve. Mike, from a CM perspective, maybe I missed something. Maybe there’s something you want to add a benefit or something along those lines.
Absolutely, Chris. I would say the first and the biggest is expanding the expertise of the project team. You know, we select partners, subcontractors, and vendors differently in using some of these tenets, this change in culture, and this change in behavior for IPD jobs, and we’re bringing it on even for non-IPD jobs. It’s not just who is the right subcontractor because they’re low bid; it’s who’s the right fit with the project team, what subcontractors have the expertise and the willingness to help even coach themselves and let themselves be coached and mentored to support the project and how do we bring those people and then actually put them in a chance to help grow the team, to support the AEs and the owner, and the nursing staff.
How do we bring people who are actually really dedicated to solving those problems at the subcontractor and vendor level? And I’d say it’s a benefit because when you can find people that fit that mold and pick people that are the right actual fit, you’re really building an even larger high-performing team. The challenge is that the market is still so new to this philosophy or idea that there isn’t an experienced pool of subcontractors and vendors that exist nationally or locally. So, you have to continue coaching and you have to continue educating and mentoring. And that’s a challenge that I think we’re all willing to continue endeavoring to solve. And, as a team, we are trying to solve that because we are trying to create more opportunities and not just stick to it just because you did it once; you get to do it again. We need other people to learn, grow, and join the ideas and behavior culture that we’re trying to create. So it’s pretty powerful.
Steve Greulich (26:58Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Yeah, and to follow that, I think the challenge with the subcontractors and folks is twofold. One of them is at the beginning, as Mike just talked about, but as the project goes on, and it goes from a concept to a design to a detailed design and into construction, it can be a challenge to continue that continuous onboarding, that bringing everybody you know, you got to bring on two new superintendents and a PM and five new subcontractors and you can get comfortable, especially on these large long projects. The core team can get comfortable with how to function and collaborate. But you’re constantly bringing new people in who most likely have never lived in this world. They might have come from very traditional projects that weren’t collaborative. It was more adversarial, or at least maybe not adversarial, but “It’s not my problem; it’s your problem.” So, that’s a challenge I think we all need to continue to work on as a project goes through its lifecycle. But Chris, you know, we’ve talked about the subcontractor culture and the consultants and those kinds of things. What about the tradespeople? Where do you see that?
Chris McGinnis (28:24Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
So you just said something that really resonated with me when you said there’s an adversarial relationship almost that exists. It’s there. It’s unfortunate because of the industry and the history of coming up. Mike mentioned earlier about CMs wanting to be trusted. Subcontractors also feel that, and they want to be trusted as well. For so long, people have been doing this. Most of our key trade partners have been around for a long time. You know, they’ve been in business a long time. They have successful companies. And sometimes, that animosity and that adversarial approach is there, and it’s unfortunate. But when we create this culture that we’ve been talking about, and we start it right from the beginning and successfully onboard people, what I see in the field is that it goes away.
Chris McGinnis (29:16Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
It’s pretty amazing when that animosity and that adversarial culture is sort of working its way out, and you have a really high-functioning team on a project; it’s amazing at what can be accomplished. You know, I really thought that it would make your day-to-day better. But I didn’t expect the increase in tangible things like quality and safety on a construction site when you have good partners and the animosity is gone, and people have bought into this culture. I’ve been on jobs where people become almost like family. You learn so much about these people, which goes a long way. It leaps and bounds over our typical 32nd-morning conversation of “What are you working on today? You need to do this by this day.” It becomes more of: “How’s your family doing? How are you doing? Are you stressed? Can I help you with anything?” We work together, and I see that happening on these projects. It’s a pretty amazing thing to see on-site.
It’s pretty powerful to see it not just at the site level and at the company level but also to see it propagate and maybe continue on, right? Like, you’ll have the relationships you build in these types of projects, create the next project’s goodwill, and the next team will start in a better spot if you have some of these people, again, involved. And that’s really what we’re here to do. We’re a relationship industry, and successful relationships mean relying on people and building them up and coaching and mentoring and creating a way where they’re not adversarial and that we are all doing what we’re trying to do to be better and to help each other. So it’s pretty awesome. I would say, Chris, there’s still some hesitation out there in the market. And I’m not sure if it’s at the subcontractor, maybe just the whole community level still seems to be maybe not quite believing that this is the way that the future should be that the 21st-century contractor and construction team looks a little bit different than the, the 20th-century and 19th-century teams. So, hopefully, we can see that.
Steve Greulich (31:41Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
But I think on the positive side, right? I agree with you. And, some of that is our market because I’ve spent a lot of time with folks on the West Coast who have been doing IPD or IPD-Lite for years. But it’s still relatively new on the East Coast. But I would say that what we found is that we have yet, at least I don’t believe we have yet, to come across somebody who said, okay, I’m going to give this a shot. And when the next one comes up, they say, I don’t want any part of it. It has actually gone the other way. Where there are people who have been watching from the outside and said, you know what? I want to be involved in the next one of those, or I will really want to really give it a shot. So I think that speaks a lot. And then the market talks to each other, right?
Chris McGinnis (32:27Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
So, that’s amazing to hear. Because you two both had worked on one of the largest in the Philadelphia area, IPD projects.
Steve Greulich (32:35Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
The largest!
Chris McGinnis (32:36Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
The largest. You mentioned earlier the 1.6 billion massive mega-hospital project that you two were on. So, I know that it was a highly successful IPD project. And you mentioned that people come, and they say, I want to be a part of the next one. That’s great to hear because I personally believe that these successes will help foster the next level of projects. The question that arises, though, is what is the scalability of an IPD project? A billion and a half, 1.6 billion. Can you do it on a smaller level, do you think?
Steve Greulich (33:11Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
So that’s been a question for me for about a decade. I’ve been to many conferences and talked to lots of people about how you scale this to the more typical-size projects. I’ll tell you, so that was $1.6 billion, really let’s call it 1.1, and we have continued to use IPD. We have a current project that’s in the three-fifty range. We have a project in the 150 range and one in the hundred million dollars range. So we are scaling it to smaller projects, but still very large projects, right in the overall scheme of things. And it’s a little bit still to be seen how well they work because they’re all only in progress. But I think, you know, one thing that we’re working on diligently is team building and collaboration, which we all believe is absolutely one of the most important things here.
Steve Greulich (34:17Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
How do you do that when you’re not together five days a week for five years, which is what we were on the Pavilion. And what we are showing and proving, I think to ourselves that one day a week, two days a week, two and a half days a week, some virtual, some in-person with the team. And as long as the message is consistent and the expectations are clear, we’re finding out that it can work on those size projects to go to smaller renovation projects. It’s a team question. I don’t think it’s a problem. I think it’s a team question about getting the right people together who will work together, but they’re not going to be working together every single day. So, there are entities out there that have attacked this in different ways. So, there are different ways to look at it, but it is scalable. It doesn’t have to be a mega project; it does not.
Chris McGinnis (35:21Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Mike, from a CM perspective: similar?
Similar. And you can see that, as the jobs get smaller, certain trades make more and more sense, honestly becoming a true key trade partner. And joining the IPD team, we had a site work contractor who worked with us on the Pavilion, a very reputable company, and we’ve done a lot of work together, but they weren’t an IPD partner on that job. Frankly, it was new to them and new to the industry, and it didn’t seem like there was a lot of sense for whatever reason at the time. But, since that project, they have continuously asked to join the next IPD. They saw the success, and we are working with them now on one of these smaller-scale projects to see and test.
They are a great fit because they get the culture and the understanding of wanting to collaborate, be transparent, work as a team, and solve what’s best for the project, which is great. I agree with Steve; time will tell. I think certain trades will always make sense if you can find the right partners to join the fold. I think certain projects that become more complex that aren’t necessarily just simple cookie cutters or the design is already complete—there are not a lot of issues—ones that require a lot more technical experience that are solving maybe more problems, more challenges, and or have some other constraints for whatever reason that need the contractual locks to be unlocked, if you will, to say, we got to do what’s best for the project, whatever that means.
I think those projects that we’ll find make sense still to be true IPD regardless of the size and length, but it will put a lot of effort into our partners. And so, hopefully, our partners, trade groups, and AE teams understand that it still requires the right type of people with the right fit. And as experience goes we’ll get a little bit leaner, a little bit quicker, a little bit faster and efficient and be able to communicate better because we’ll have been doing it for, for decades, hopefully.
Steve Greulich (37:20Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Awesome.
So I would say Steve, you know, in kind of a closing fashion, with all of our IPD experiences and yours in particular, what is your single biggest key takeaway for these highly collaborative projects?
Steve Greulich (37:37Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
I can only get one?
One, just one.
Steve Greulich (37:41Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
Boy, I would say that it really is the ability to react to changes or outside influences in a very quick and cost-effective manner. The finger-pointing goes away. Everybody tries to figure out the best way to solve things. And we see all kinds of things. I talked a little bit earlier about medical equipment, right? So there are always technological changes. There could be market changes, especially on longer projects where the labor market gets really difficult or, as we’ve seen, the supply chain gets really complicated. Or there could be a pandemic, right? With the Pavilion project, we worked right through the pandemic, and everybody just sat down and figured out how to deal with it. So, that honestly, is my biggest one. Things are going to come up, especially in the healthcare world, which we just have to deal with, and everybody dealt with it as quickly as possible.
Steve Greulich (38:52Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
I am going to give you a second one because I’ve been in this business for a long time. One of the first companies I worked for, all we did–on the construction, general contractor side–all we did was lump sum hard bid work. I was on the pre-construction team, and I would have subcontractors hang up on me as soon as I told them who I was and what company I worked for because of how we treated subcontractors in the marketplace. So the team building part, you guys both mentioned it, you make friends, you make a team, right? You make friends for life, quite honestly. Anybody can pick up; I can get a phone call from somebody whom I haven’t talked to for five years and who was part and parcel of the Pavilion project. And I’m happy to hear from them, and I’m happy to help them. So that doesn’t have anything to do with design and construction, but it goes a long way to go into work every single day and being happy and being comfortable about going to work. So, Chris, what about you?
Chris McGinnis (39:52Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
That is exactly where my head is at.
Chris McGinnis (39:54Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
A lot of cortisol and a lot of stress wasn’t really a way to live, and I’m newer to this IPD than you two—this IPD-Lite project. And I’ll tell you in my experience, and my biggest takeaway is the ability to wake up, go to work, and love what I do every day. I know when I get up in the morning and leave my house, I’m going to work with great people who have a great mindset, and we’re here to solve problems. We’re not here to fight over problems. We’re not here to point the finger and blame. We’re here to solve it. We have a relationship, and we know our relationship transcends beyond one project or one issue. And now I’m happy, like you said, the same thing you said five years ago, you work with somebody, they call you. I’m happy when I see the phone and catch up with people. We just talk. Sometimes, we don’t even talk about work. It’s really built a lasting relationship and, left a lasting mark on me, and really bettered my life in the construction industry. So now I’m going to ask Mike his best takeaway.
Similar theme. So, as many of us have gotten into this business, we did not get into creating adversaries to create hardship and to make things more challenging. We’re here to solve problems. We’re here to be the engineers. We all started off in our careers being here to do what’s best for clients and projects. And feel like we are actually a trusted partner. I look forward to the times when Steve will call and say, I have this challenge. We have to go help. And then we will absolutely stop everything we’re doing to solve that problem because that’s the relationship that we are happy to have built, and that’s our reputation, but that’s also what we’re living and waking up daily to do. The biggest takeaway is when you find projects that are able to implore these behaviors and create that culture, it is amazing how high-performing that team becomes. It doesn’t just stay at our level; it propagates down leads through all of our staff who work for us. It bleeds through the whole project. It makes everybody proud to have worked on projects that have created that. Ultimately, that then continues the relationships in our industry, which is just amazing.
Chris McGinnis (42:10Go to https://www.temi.com/editor/t/vdfivtXDjauoag1O98D2Iy9cFUxxifScPJyakXavf4wysj2yR23OHH_scNPVq4VK1s6CT4wcL-fQQLkF5f8c_nXmgdc?loadFrom=DocumentDeeplink):
It’s awesome. Thank you both for joining us for the conversation today. It’s been an excellent discussion. Thank you for listening in to Building Conversations. Please be sure to subscribe and listen to wherever you get your podcasts.