The Power of Partnership: MWDBEs
In honor of Women in Construction Week, Danielle Simone, STO Building Group Vice President & Regulatory Compliance Counsel, had a candid conversation about the MWDBE process with one of Structure Tone New York’s longtime partners, and President of Egg Electric, Ellen Aschendorf, as well as Structure Tone’s Regional MWDBE Manager for the Northeast, Mafe Alizo.
HOST
Danielle Simone
Vice President, Regulatory Compliance CounselView Bio
GUEST
Ellen Aschendorf
President, Egg ElectricView Bio
GUEST
Mafe Alizo
Regional MWDBE Manager, Structure ToneView Bio
Narrator (00:09):
Welcome to Building Conversations, a construction podcast powered by the STO Building Group In honor of Women in Construction Week, today’s episode is all about operating as a minority within the AEC industry. Join Danielle Simone, STO Building Group’s Vice President and Regulatory Compliance Counsel, as she discusses the benefits and challenges of the MWDBE certification system with Mafe Alizo, Structure Tone’s Regional MWDBE Manager, and Ellen Aschendorf, President of Egg Electric, a WBE-certified business since the early ‘90s.
Danielle Simone (00:59):
Welcome to Building Conversations, the STO Building Group podcast. I’m Danielle Simone, Vice President, Regulatory Compliance Counsel here at STOBG. Today, we’re going to be talking about MWDBEs—or minority, women, and disadvantaged business enterprises for those of you who aren’t familiar with the term. Joining me today is Mafe Alizo, the Regional MWDBE Manager for Structure Tone’s Northeast region and Ellen Aschendorf, President of Egg Electric.
Ellen Aschendorf (01:28):
Hi, my name is Ellen Aschendorf. I am the founder and President of Egg Electric. We’ve been operating since 1989. That was my first year. I’m an entrepreneur. I started with nothing and no one and I slowly, slowly built it up, one job at a time, with companies like Structure Tone. They gave me my first job at my own business and by believing me, let me go forward and really helped propel my career. They’re still my best customer today. My background was in business. I have a degree in accounting, and I was going to go to law school. I took a year off and I was working for my father who was an electrical contractor, and there were some personal things, and things that happened at his business and he wasn’t there, and his right-hand man quit. So, I started answering the phone and one after another, people hung up on me. When they asked for the person in charge and I said, “Speaking, how can I help you?” Click. I was told I couldn’t do this, that women didn’t do this. And it just infuriated me. And the more they told me, I couldn’t, the more I wanted to do it. So that’s, my background. It’s a lot of grit and hard work and building on one thing after another. I have the ability to see past things, to see what happens 200 steps down the road. And I think not being an electrician freed me up to do things differently.
Danielle Simone (03:06):
Thank you, Ellen. Mafe, can you please give your background?
Mafe Alizo (03:10):
Of course. Thanks Danielle. I’m Mafe. I’m the MWDBE Manager for the Northeast region of Structure Tone. A little bit about my background is I graduated from architectural school in Venezuela. I was doing my own design-build up until 2019, when I moved to the US and started working for Structure Tone. I worked as an estimator. I transitioned to the field as a superintendent, after which I got involved with MWDBEs in 2021. My role as an MWDBE manager is to lead cross-functional teams to accomplish our company’s goals, creating strategic initiatives, improving systems, processes, and bottom line, results. I mean, as a company, we were already doing great things that we haven’t shied away from, but it was more of a matter of internal organizations, standardizing our systems, enhancing our reporting, cross-region communications with the West Coast, Southwest, other business units, and see how diversity and inclusion we’re moving in other places. So, that’s a little bit of what I do.
Danielle Simone (04:20):
Great, thank you. What does it mean to be an MWDBE subcontractor and how is the MWDBE certification used to encourage more diverse project teams at the construction management level?
Mafe Alizo (04:32):
An MWDBE subcontractor is a business in which at least 51% of the ownership is controlled and managed on a daily basis by a person considered a minority, a woman, or disadvantage. The MWDBE certification program I think is immensely helpful because it gives these businesses access to development assistance and greater visibility and exposure through publicly accessible lists on the government webpages and continual networking events that allow them to be seen and compete against bigger players in the industry.
Danielle Simone (05:09):
Thank you, Mafe. Ellen, to become certified as an MWDBE subcontractor, different agencies have processes and procedures that are necessary. Can you tell us a little bit about what these processes entail, how you feel about them, relating to the paperwork you provide, the interview that may take place, and do you believe it’s a fair process?
Ellen Aschendorf (05:30):
Well, I did this many decades ago and for me it was easy because I am a woman, and I am the only owner. And I guess I’d say I’m the real deal. I didn’t just come into business to be a WBE. I was doing construction prior to the WBE certification. So, when people would look at me and try to understand why I was doing this back in the early ‘90s, they questioned me, “Well, why don’t you have your license?” And I answered because I didn’t have a W2. I had been paid with a 1099 by one of my prior jobs. He’s like, okay, like everything was very straightforward. So, when you do the right thing, then the system really works. That being said, what really bothers me is that there are a lot of companies where the wife is the owner and she does the accounting and everything.
Ellen Aschendorf (06:28):
And I feel that’s not legit, that I really work hard. I crawled on my belly to get to where I am because I was learning at the time as doing, I had no one financing me. So, I think that it’s important to have the interviews. It’s important to go through the paperwork. It’s funny, Structure Tone was just asking me to check on my state certification. So, I went on, I finally reached someone there after a couple of weeks and found out that I wasn’t on the list anymore because I wasn’t actively using it since 2013. I said, nobody told me this. I’m still the same person, we’re still the same company—how could you just do that and not even send me a notice? So, the paperwork has sides. One side, it protects companies like mine but if you want it to be legit, and I think Mafe and I when we met, we spoke about that—that a lot of companies were just passing through and now they have to really, you are responsible to vet them out, but the paperwork becomes overwhelming for me as well, if I have to re-certify. So, it’s both.
Danielle Simone (07:46):
Thanks, Ellen. It does seem like the process has benefits as well as disadvantages. Are there times, Ellen, when you feel like you are asked to bid on work or on a project solely because of your MWDBE status? And if so, how do you feel about that?
Ellen Aschendorf (08:00):
Well, I’m blessed that I have enough years of work that wasn’t just because of my MWDBE that I don’t think that that’s the only reason people use me. And companies that call me that I don’t have a relationship with, because I’m a WBE, I really don’t work with them. I mean, I don’t know who they are, and I don’t want to take those risks. I’d rather work for companies that I know. Take Structure Tone for example. I was working for them for a few years when I worked for my father. It had nothing to do with WBE. When I first started my business, again, nobody was focused on – WBE wasn’t until the mid to later ‘90s, when they gave me my first new construction job at Columbia University, because Columbia said, “Oh, we want women and minorities.” So, at the time, Mark Dalton was doing the purchasing and he called me, “Ellen, come take a look at this job because they’re looking to help promote women and minorities.” I was like, “Great.” But it wasn’t like they had come to know me because I’m a WBE. So, I think for our customers, it’s much easier because we work on all types of jobs. So, I hope that helps.
Danielle Simone (09:16):
Yeah, I think that explains it. Thanks, Ellen. Okay. I’m going to start with Mafe here. Mafe, do you ever find yourself acting differently to acclimate to a business setting where you’re the only woman or minority at the meeting or the event?
Mafe Alizo (09:32):
I would say, no, not really. I’ve actually found that what makes a difference is not acting differently but understanding that there is no difference between us. That I am as capable of being in that room as any other person.
Danielle Simone (09:47):
That’s great. And that makes complete sense. Ellen, I want to pose the same question to you because you’ve been in the industry a little bit longer and you did speak to some different experiences that you’ve had. So, do you feel like you’ve ever had to change your behavior or acclimate yourself to the business setting or setting for possibly winning work because you are a woman?
Ellen Aschendorf (10:09):
Well, I think years ago, maybe I had to sometimes get a little tougher because they just didn’t know what it to do with me. Or be a little stronger – I shouldn’t say tougher. There’s political correctness now, which we didn’t have that when I was coming up the ranks. So, people would look at me, or if I came with one of my people who would clearly be a subordinate, but yet they would speak to them. Then I had to sort of take control of the conversation. But yet I just closed a job last week and the nice thing I did notice, and it was a room full of probably about 15 people, some of them from different continents, and what really impressed me was they spoke right to me, and it just showed me how times have changed. And these programs have helped change impressions. That was the first thing I noticed, the other gentleman who first made the referral, who works for me and is older than myself and I was sure they were going to start speaking to him, but yet when I answered the first question, everyone shifted towards me. They understood the alpha female.
Danielle Simone (11:26):
That’s great to hear. That’s a great story, thanks Ellen. Okay. Starting again with Mafe, do you believe you need to operate at a higher level or that you’re judged differently or on a different standard based on your gender in an industry that lacks diversity?
Mafe Alizo (11:42):
I would have to say when it comes to being in the field, yes to being judged on different standards. I think that maybe it’s cultural standards that have engraved us with the belief that women are less capable of this type of work. So, most of the time, it means that we have to work harder or speak louder to prove that we’re capable before we’re trusted, as opposed to other people.
Danielle Simone (12:08):
Thank you, Mafe. Ellen, what is your experience with that?
Ellen Aschendorf (12:11):
I think so. I think I had to dot the Is and across the Ts. I definitely worked harder, and you know that movie, “if we build it, they will come.” So that’s what happened with me. I was like a perfectionist – dot the Is, cross the Ts and I figured there were enough people who just wanted excellence in how their job is done. And someone who paid attention to details rather than from the old boys’ network or someone they went to college with. So it’s actually because of that kind of discrimination that made me more successful because I knew what I had going against me.
Danielle Simone (12:48):
I think you raise a great point, Ellen, because that is something we often hear that it’s not such outright necessarily discrimination, but that if a woman or minority is brought onto a project or is working in an industry where they lack diversity, it’s really that the standard is just a little different. You can’t really make the same mistake as your counterpart because it’s viewed differently. You’re all of a sudden incompetent, whereas they maybe just had an oversight, so that’s interesting that you can articulate that in your own experience.
Ellen Aschendorf (13:17):
Totally. And you know, the other thing, if I get angry because I gave direction, it wasn’t followed and it blew up figuratively and the client is angry, then it’s like, “Oh, here she goes again. She has a temper.” Really? I have a temper? If I was a man, it wouldn’t be that – there would just be that I was angry because they messed up. I’m not allowed to get angry. And that makes me angry.
Mafe Alizo (13:43):
Of course.
Ellen Aschendorf (13:43):
Because the truth is it’s, and the reason it escalates, is because they’re not respecting or owning the piece of the error that’s theirs.
Danielle Simone (13:53):
Thank you, Ellen, yeah that’s a very interesting perspective from the business that you conduct. Now, Ellen, throughout your career, have you seen the industry—and it seems like you have—make some progress when it comes to creating more space for MWDBEs and what about a more inclusive work environment in general?
Ellen Aschendorf (14:11):
Very much so. I was skeptical even about 10 years ago where it became really more of a buzz and specifically some projects we were doing at Hudson Yards where everything was, you know, there was a lot of talk about that and a lot of effort was made. But I think what really helped it is our society as a whole and the culture and the youth who all got out there and said, wait a minute, different is OK, and you can’t tell me that that’s not OK. So, I think that in concert, because there were programs before, but first of all, people are taking them seriously, corporations are taking them seriously, but I think there’s a shift in our culture that’s helping it resonate more seriously. I hope that it stays.
Danielle Simone (15:00):
Mafe, is there anything that Structure Tone is doing, uh, specifically to create more space for MWDBEs or have a more inclusive work environment in general?
Mafe Alizo (15:11):
Well, I am attending, as a company also, a lot of outreach and networking events, which is helping us increase our subcontractor population, encouraging also our clients to consider MWDBE participation on projects. Even if it wasn’t an initial consideration by them. And we also have internally our own diversity and inclusion, we have a Structure Tone Women in Construction, and both of both of these groups have initiatives to help make Structure Tone a more diverse and inclusive company.
Ellen Aschendorf (15:41):
Could I speak to that?
Danielle Simone (15:43):
Yes, absolutely.
Ellen Aschendorf (15:44):
Structure Tone has been unbelievable with Egg Electric. It’s not that you’re asking me to speak, but I can’t say enough because they always gave me an opportunity, whether it was in 1989 with Datacom and I had a high, six-figure job, to whatever, even building very, very complicated jobs. They saw how dedicated we were and how we dotted the Is and crossed the Ts, and they just kept allowing us to grow. To build our first building, it was actually with Pavarini but that’s when Structure Tone still did all the purchasing and everything. I mean, that’s an opportunity that doesn’t always come along and it’s been consistent. Even when people question me, like guys in the field, maybe the supers, one time they called Scott Corneby a bunch of years back and said, you know, Ellen’s not giving us all the schedules and everything and blah, blah, blah.
Ellen Aschendorf (16:41):
He called me up and he said, “Ellen, are we good?” And I said, “Yes, of course, we’re good.” It was a very aggressive, very complicated schedule. And it was mostly electric. And I said, “Yes, not a problem. We might even finish early.” He said, “Great.” And he hung up. He didn’t doubt that we were going to take care of it. And the truth was, it was such an aggressive schedule. We didn’t have time to sit in meetings and tell everybody step by step. We were just go, go, go. And that kind of support from the executive vice president of Structure Tone, Mike Neary, same thing. They’d come onto my jobs, it used to be Mr. White and Mr. Donaghy and now, you know, of course, Jim Donaghy. They come on the site, “Ellen, what’s going on? How how’s the job running?” I mean, I think they value, our work and they value my opinion and not every company is like that. So, I have a lot of gratitude.
Danielle Simone (17:42):
Wow. That’s great to hear Ellen, thank you. Mafe, what do you think the benefits are of having a diverse workforce, especially in the construction industry?
Mafe Alizo (17:51):
I think more than just in this industry—in every industry, having a room full of people from diverse backgrounds broadens the perspective of how to approach any situation. Diversity of thought, naturally leads to innovation, bringing more creativity and better decision making.
Danielle Simone (18:10):
Thank you, Mafe. That’s a great way to look at it. Ellen, do you have a perspective on that?
Ellen Aschendorf (18:14):
No, I agree. And different people are good at different things. I’m going to say something that may be a little contrary, but I think people need to know what they’re good at. And if someone has the physical prowess to do some of the heavy work, that’s great. But if someone doesn’t that’s okay. Also, because even when there was a time where it was all men in the field, not every man does everything, not every man could carry four-inch, galvanized pipe, and not every man could wire controls. It’s the right person for the right job. And I think it’s important that we remember that and don’t try to put ourselves – women or minorities – in a situation just because they’re women and minorities. I think that we need to maintain meritocracies. Give them more opportunity, but then it should be a meritocracy because if we don’t to maintain excellence, then we’re just proving the whole system wrong.
Danielle Simone (19:13):
Great. Thank you, Ellen and Mafe. I think those are great answers to that question and let us see really where the benefits lie. Okay, Ellen, we’re going to start with you with this one. What else could the industry be doing to encourage women to consider careers in construction? And do you have any advice for young women who are just starting their career in construction?
Ellen Aschendorf (19:34):
Well, the advice is don’t let lack of technical or physical experience deter you. Cream rises. If you’re good, you’re good and go for it. And I know there are different organizations, but I’m looking for someone to pick up the phone to me and say, “Ellen, I’d love to work for women owned business.” Even in office, I’m looking for project managers, estimators. I want someone to have the courage to call and say, “Can I come work with you?” Because I am a woman-owned business and I’d love to mentor people. I see people all the time that are great. And I tell them that they’re great. I say, if you ever are looking for something, but I don’t have many women take me up on that.
Danielle Simone (20:18):
That’s an interesting point, Ellen. And I think that’s something that maybe we should consider internally as well, how to connect with our minority- or women-owned subcontractors in mentorship opportunities, not only with Structure Tone, but connecting people across the industry. Mafe, same question to you. What else do you think could be done in the industry to encourage women to consider careers in construction? And do you have any advice for young women who are just starting out in their construction careers?
Mafe Alizo (20:48):
I believe the industry has been doing really great things these past couple of years, like creating so many organizations and holding events that allow visibility. I think that’s the most important thing—young women to see how others are succeeding in the industry and realizing that it’s not impossible to reach these things. And it’s not just a man’s world anymore. And I think my advice would be same thing as I just believe in yourself, what you’re capable of, and that there are actually no barriers in the industry anymore.
Ellen Aschendorf (21:21):
I think women have to help other women and not be afraid to help other women. Women are so used to whether it was the old-fashioned wife who the husband said, “oh, I’m not for this women’s lib” but they would never cross them. I mean, we have to help each other more. Men have helped me more in my career than women.
Mafe Alizo (21:41):
Yeah, you’re right. I think that’s also a social, like a cultural barrier of women competing against each other. I guess there were earlier less opportunities. So, we thought we had to compete to reach those, while we can actually work together to build. That’s why we’ve been doing great things, because now there’s organizations where we’re getting together and we’re realizing that, you know, we’ll rise when we push each other.
Danielle Simone (22:05):
Great. Thank you. This has been a really great discussion today. Mafe and Ellen, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your insight and experience with us.
Mafe Alizo (22:14):
Thank you.
Ellen Aschendorf (22:16):
Thank you, Danielle.
Narrator (22:20):
Thanks for listening to Building Conversations. For more episodes like this, you can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts, Audible, and the STO Building Group website.